How liberal theology is effectually destroying morality in the church.
Recently I had an email conversation with an old friend I had not talked to in over 20 years. Like most people you lose track of the people you grew up with when you graduate high school and begin your own life. I remember this person to be a very intelligent and caring person and by the tone of their email not much has changed. I wish to share this conversation with you but for the sake of anonymity no names will be referred to nor will things that could be used to identify this person to anyone.
I'm sharing this conversation as I believe it shows a clear indication of many things ongoing with the general attitude the church, society and the potential effects of higher education, liberal theology and universalism. What I would like to do is point out some inconsistancies that this friend has developed within thier belief system, how it may have occurred and why it may have occurred.
For the sake of ease in reading the conversation and responses my friend's messages will be in green and mine will be in maroon.
May 22 at 9:48am
Joe
I looked at your profile and realized I might be unintentionally offensive to you as I am moderately liberal in my views and beliefs. I have friends on here who are Jewish, who are gay, who are democrats, who may not be religious, who are musicians, who have become famous for all the things you probably don't really know, relate to, or want to know. (One friend wrote for Beavis and Butthead, and another wrote a song for the Counting Crows, another is married to a man, several are authors on Classical Philosphy or have published books or interviewed John Lennon for example- pop culture. Suzanne Vega- I was friends with her brother at college and met her several times and like her a lot.) I totally respect your views, but have found that many of my Christian friends who are very driven towards idealistic purity tend to want to isolate themselves. Maybe that is what brought you to Alaska, I don't know. I think very highly of you and do not want to offend you. We are just very different. If you think this would be problematic, I understand. Me. I believe in God. I believe in Christ. I do not see our religion as the only valid one, and instead see the similarities and know that if others saw it too there would be less conflict in our world. I believe in evolution. I believe that God's hand is in all things. I believe that all of us on this earth are family.
In my friend's opening message several things stand out to me of note. The profile being referred to is my profile on Facebook. In that profile I'm very forthcoming about my belief in Christ and my conservative beliefs. To me the message portrays a tangled mass of dichotomous beliefs tinged by modern liberal ideology. To understand what I'm saying we need to start at the end of the message and work our way to the beginning.
My friend states their belief in God and Christ. Which a lot of people will profess...however in the very next sentence we see my friend stating that they do not see Christianity as the only valid one and their belief in evolution. I want to state that belief in evolution does not preclude one from being a Christian but it is an indicator of theological issues that may illuminate the fact that they may not be.
Next we see a statement of belief that all of us on this earth are family. Technically speaking, since we all descended from Adam and Eve this is true. But in light of the follow on conversations the intent of this statement shows the underlying meaning. Todays liberal idealogues go on with the mantra of tolerance and diversity when in reality they themselves tend to be among the most intolerant if you hold a diverse view from their own. This can be seen by the mindset my friend had in the beginning of thier message.
In the middle of message we see my friend saying they respect my views but find that Christians want to isolate themselves. This is an interesting comment. So someone who professes being a Christian is looking down upon Christians who do not desire to mire themselves in the world. When I first read this I found it curious but in the follow on conversation it became clear why it was made.
This brings us to the beginning of the message which to me was an interesting way to open a conversation. The statement about not wanting to be offensive "unintentionally" because of who they know, hang out with and what they believe. I find this funny coming from someone claiming to be a Christian. If you ponder for a moment the stereotypical liberal definition of a Christian it would include words such as intolerant, hateful, homophobic and judgmental which from their point of view its geared toward people and not their actions.
In reality Christians should be intolerant of sin. We should be reaching out to the lost (the people committing that sin) out of love and out of obediance to God to share the Gospel.
But let us continue with my response:
May 22 at 10:23am
Hi Friend,
I'm not offended by what others believe or don't believe. After the life I've lived, the choices I've made along the way and the things I've experienced I've come to accept certain things as truth...I've walked more than a mile in shoes similar to some of those you've mentioned...and some you have not. I traveled some pretty dark roads at times. Eventually, I came to accept the truth in Scripture and the truth of Christ 8 years ago and it brought with it a clarity. But, I was a fool for a very long time first.
A pluralistic view of religion brings with it some definitive problems. All religions in the world except Biblical Christianity have one thing in common at its core...you have to work for your salvation (whether its pray this many times, do this or that etc)...all are man centered and works based. Frankly it's arrogance on the part of man. I've been involved in Apologetics for most of the last 8 years and through serious study I come to question much of the conventional wisdom that the world proclaims as truth. When one cuts to the core of the issue it comes down to one thing regarding beliefs...the thought of being accountable to anyone beyond themselves for their actions is an abhorant thought to many people. As a result relativism creeps in and self justification sets people up to believe that everything is ok and acceptable.
This presents even more problems resulting in circular reasoning to justify their own actions. The bottom line is everyone knows what is right or wrong, the question is do they act upon that knowledge or suppress it in favor of "feeling good" or what not.
I moved to Alaska in '92 with the Army and fell in love with the place. Isolated? Yes but merely due to demographics of the state...but if a Christian is truly living out thier faith they are to be proclaiming the Gospel to all people, sharing the hope of salvation through Christ.
I agree that a difference between us is I do see that Christ is the only way. Sometimes the truth can be offensive. Yes there may be "similarities"...but much like sending a photo through a xerox machine...the original is still the original and the copies are not the same.
Hopefully that makes sense. Again, I'm not offended by people's choices of beliefs and actions...that's their choice. But, it's my responsibility as a Christian to share with them the outcome of those choices...what they do with that information is up to them...it's their choice.
Joe
A short time later I recieved the following response:
May 22 at 5:06pm
I guess I struggle with there is nothing in the Bible that says Christ is the "only" way. I think he brought clarity and truth and most of all the direction of love to mankind from God the father and a way to be closer to Him. At the same time Mohammed was his contemporary and they were in the same town at the same time and even knew of each other. The similarities to each religion is so striking. They were both preaching the same thing basically. But it is man who put the word "only" in there. Then you get fanatacism to the point of destroying others to get to that end. It makes no sense, but we have been doing it for centuries.
Here is where things start to go awry. Where this revisionist view of history came from I didn't know at this point but could only assume it was from the university my friend attended. To say that Mohammed and Christ were contemporaries was a shocking statement to me....further to say that they were presching the same thing was unbelievable. It showed a complete lack of understanding of not only when Islam started but even a cursory understanding of the history of Islam.
Worse to me was the comment about how it was man who put the word "only" in the Bible (referring to Christ being the only way to God).
Now things were starting to get interesting....
May 22 at 8:43pm
Hi Friend,
Actually the Bible does say that:
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
No man cometh...but by me. Seems pretty all inclusive and exclusive with a simple reading to me.
As for Mohammed being Jesus' contemporary...that's a fabrication of men teaching an agenda and not history. Mohammed lived from about 570AD to 630AD. Islam didn't become a "religion" until around 600AD. The similarities that do exist are because Islam takes the first five books of the bible as their own and mirrors some of the rest. With a deeper study of Islam the truth differences come out especially in the Hadith. They were not teaching the same thing.
It generally makes no sense because folks try to twist things to fit their version of God instead of what He Himself proclaims in the Bible.
Joe
This response then came forth...
May 22 at 11:01pm
Hi Joe-
I am sorry what I wrote was confusing. What I meant was Mohammed in Medina would have known Christianity and been influenced by it i.e. Jesus.
I have translated this from Koine Greek in college and in the context of LOGOS which is what he was trying to portray in the rest of what John 14 is about. The context of knowing Jesus as the Father and not just Jesus the man. No one comes to the Father- is him explaining that no one comes to know or physically near as it has both senses of the word choice -- Jesus is the father and is the only way to be near the Father. "but by me" is not a phrase that means by only me will you achieve something- it has the connection and force of "but by knowing me" you have seen the Father. This really does not have the linguistic force of "but only by me" and there really is no way to express the Greek well in English as it lacks some of the contextual richness that Ancient languages inherently have in the words and of their culture contemporaneous that would have been understood by them. This is the one line of the Bible that is mistranslated in the sense that it would give the reader more understanding if it were linked properly and the schism of not linking it properly to the verb- which then makes the dangerous schism and it bothers me a lot. It is so hard to explain this to someone who maybe has never translated before.
Like my email address in Latin the first line of the Aeneid by Virgil. "Arma virumque cano troiae qui primus ab oris. Italiam fato profugus Laviniaque venit. --- Arms and a man I sing for the first part is really the best translation- but does it have the contextual richness -- nope. And you have to add the context but in keeping with the brevity of the original text: "I sing of arms and the man, who, at first (exiled by fate) from the shores of Troy, (came to Italy and the Lavinian shores....)." They did not have punctuation per se. What we consider sentences often ran into the next with the force of the previous and sometimes even further in the text. A good translation is always one that keeps the integrity of the structure and does not embellish too much to get the meaning. This also leads to not making that connection, unfortunately.
What is beautiful about John 14 is that each recollection of what Jesus said (and we have a second party writing down at a later date which makes it less explitive) is that the force of what he says in essence and carries over to Phillip is by emulating and having Jesus the Father in him he is doing what his Father wants and the beauty of the idea you can have the Father in you too and this is how to do it.
I hope you get what I mean. I know this also comes down to belief, and I am not trying to change you. I respect whatever yours are. I just know that in my heart and what I know from who Jesus is and what the Bible is about--
Do you really believe that God - and we are all children of Abraham - whether you are Jew, Muslim, or Christian is going to not let a good Muslim or Jew into heaven because they are not "Christian" per se. Jesus lived in a time where love and direction were needed. He brought truth and light to a dark world ruled by Rome and the affirmation that we have a loving God. He showed us how to be more connected and that if we do right we will have a place in the light of his love- on earth and heaven. Christians do not have exclusivity over this. We all have the same God. We were fortunate to have his son and to be more connected on earth and he died for us, and that of course is hugely compelling to follow the New Testament. He really sealed the deal for a monotheistic belief system.
Oy! Now there it is...the ever damaging affect of higher textual criticism introduced by liberal theologians so many years ago...the resulting belief of the Bible transliterations we have are not done correctly and in english we can't really understand what was truly meant in the original languages. Although I will agree that neither Greek nor Hebrew transliterate to English cleanly, Greek is a very specific language that when understood is apparently very precise in conveying its message.
Now we were starting to get somewhere...
May 22 at 11:45pm
Hi Friend
Thank you for continuing this discussion, it's rare I encounter someone who is familiar with the topic.
You said: "do you really believe that God - and we are all children of Abraham - whether you are Jew, Muslim, or Christian is going to not let a good Muslim or Jew into heaven because they are not "Christian" per se. "
My answer...yes. For the simple fact that there is none good not one (and that includes Christians). Everyone deserves hell. All are guilty under the Law. The difference is who has repented and placed their trust and faith in Christ. I disagree with the "higher textual criticism" method for several reasons one of which is that it obfuscates the simple. John 14 is not the only place that claim is made, lets move to Acts 4:
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
In the context of the surrounding verses...that name...is again Christ. I won't even pretend to know how to transliterate from the original text beyond a word at a time, but I know this...God said He would preserve His Word. I don't believe you need to be a Greek or Hebrew scholar nor a seminary graduate to comprehend what the Bible says...the Holy Spirit is for that.
But back to the "sending good people to hell"...If you were to ask the average person if they were a "good person" they would say yes. This is the pride of man and comparing themselves amongst themselves. In God's economy the opposite is the fact.
Every last one of us will be judged by a Holy and righteous Judge based upon His Law. If you were to compare every last detail of your life against the 10 Commandments how would you fare?
Ever stolen something irrespective of value? What do you call someone who steals things?
Ever told a lie? What do you call someone who tells lies?
Ever used the Lord's name in vain? Basically as a word to express disgust as we frequently hear in movies etc? That would be called blasphemy.
Jesus said that whoever looks at a person to lust after them has already committed adultery in their heart. Ever done that?
Just in those four commandments alone I would daresay an intellectually honest person would say yes and have to admit to being a lying thief, an adulterer at heart and a blasphemer.
The Bible says that no liar, no thief, no adulterer or blasphemer will inheret the Kingdom of Heaven but rather end up in hell.
However, the purpose for Christ coming, being crucified, dying and being resurrected was to enact a legal transaction that paid for the sins of those who repent from their sins and place their trust in Him. Bottom line, no repentance, no trust in Christ...no heaven.
Further, if you look deeper into Islam you will find more differences than similarities regardless of what some may say. Allah is not the God of the Bible, but rather he is what Muslims and liberal theologians claim him to be. Do a character study on the God of the Bible and Allah and you will find the differences are clear.
Further there is no guarantee of salvation in Islam, it's very fatalistic in nature and even for a "good" Muslim it's on a whim whether Allah allows them into paradise.
I appreciate the time you are spending conversing on this matter and it's not my intent to offend you either...but if the plain sense makes common sense seek no other sense..."The Golden Rule of Bible Interpretation". :-)
Joe
From that the following response came....
May 23 at 5:50am
Joe-
I appreciate your time too:) The context surrounding is actually about who did this Act and why- and the word salvation back in the day meant more "understanding" than the force it has become by man over the centuries putting religion into it. Acts:
"After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly."
We then get the sect of the Shakers. I respect that too. If you were to take that literally without context you would think you should meet, pray and shake- which really makes sense if you think of Acts- and it embodies Acts with a physical act. If that what brings out your Holy Spirit, and that is what you interpret to be right- you are following the spirit. It is when you take it to the level of -- if you don't shake and pray you are going to hell-- is where it becomes not in context. Then you have all kinds of things burgeon from getting your Holy Spirit on.
There is no place in the Bible that says "only" with exclusivity. God is the father and we are all family. He is not kicking you out of the family because you are not believing in Jesus as the "only" way possible to get to him. Yes, he would kick you out if you did not follow his comandments- major laws of what is good and just. But he also gives you the opportunity to learn from mistakes and repent sin and be in the good light of the family. These commandments are followed by Jews too. Islam has its own set of laws with similarities. It is when you take it to the level of if you don't pray exactly so many times a day you are not going to paradise that it becomes out of context and if you are not Christian you are not going to heaven, and if you are not Jewish you are not chosen.
Now the logical fallacies really begin. My friend first builds a convenient straw man based upon a poor contextual understanding of the Pentecost event. Obviously like other man made doctrines it's based upon someone's "preference" and not a simple reading. For example the verse in question it says the "place" they were meeting was shaken....not the people.
Further the heretical position my friend holds starts to take form is this response..."he is not kickingyou out of the family because you are not believing in Jesus as the "only" way"...actually that is indeed what is going to occur and the Bible makes that point clear.
So in an attempt to better understand how my friend views the Word of God I sent the following question...
May 23 at 11:28am
Hi Friend,
Before I respond I have a question as I need to better understand your view of things. In your opinion is the Bible the inerrant and inspired Word of God as it claims to be?
Thanks
Joe
I received the following response...
May 23 at 2:09pm
Yes. The New Testament did not eradicated other world religion that worship the same God, however as these too were inspired.
Huh!?!? My friend answered affirmatively that the Bible is inerrant and inspired and goes on to devalue it. The Bible is pretty clear as to how other religions stack up in comparison...the universalism and liberal ideals of diversity lend to my friends understanding in this matter.
With that bombshell response I replied...
May 26 at 9:12am
Hi Friend,
Wow, when I reviewed our conversation this morning there's so many directions to go I'm unsure where to start. I guess the first place is your last response. Again I will state that Allah is not the God of the Bible. If you study the history of Islam they incorporated the first couple of books of the Torah initially to make it palatable to the Jews and Christians at the time. After the initial growth period of Islam under Mohammed a new revelation came to him that supplanted/added to the initial version. Why? Because the religion was stronger with more adherants. If one takes a true and unbiased look at Islam and it's history, the "radical" Islamists today are closer to true Islam than the "peaceful" version the left and media want to portray.
Further, if you do a character study of Allah and Jehovah they are two distinctly different entities and since God is the same today, as yesterday as tomorrow it doesn't work out. Islam is not a progressive revelation furthering Christianity in any way, shape or form (that's the Ba'Hai version of the world).
As for Israel and the Jews. Christianity doesn't "eradicate" Judaism, it completes it. Christ did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. The book of Romans, Ephesians and others complete the theological understanding of what Christ did for man in the realm of payment for sins and providing salvation. Under the Law ALL are guilty. James 2:10 says if you try to follow the law but stumble in one point you are guilty of all.
Again looking at the Holy Judge in the heavenly court room, a good judge has to convict you for your crimes regardless of what works you may have done. The bottom line is you still transgressed the law (stolen, lied, adultery, blasphemed etc) and we are incapable of paying the fine, only Christ could provide that payment.
Under the Torah the sacrificial system established by God only provided a temporal "covering" of sin. The theology of the Old Testament is clear on this. For a more detailed view if you have the time I wrote this a couple of years ago but goes into a bit more depth for clarity: http://www.bereanwatchmen.com/j.r.lawendowski/salvation-the-old-testament-foreshadows-the-new.html
It all comes back to one simple thing. You either believe the Scripture or you don't. It's like a fine woven tapestry, all the threads that create the tapestry are interwoven and create the big picture. Scripture is the same, the themes of all pertinent doctrines are found interwoven throughout. Pulling one thread out and trying to divine a doctrine will lead to error when not considering the interconnectedness of all the themes.
My friend, what I see is this. From what I remember of you is that you are a truly caring person. Because of the friendships you've made with people who by all accounts may be fantastic people (talented, caring, loving etc), you are having some difficulty rectifying what the Bible says regarding the outcome of life and exclusivity of it (the road is wide that leads to destruction). The Bible says all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and that it's appointed once to a man once to die and then judgment. At that point every thought, deed, and word will be held account and without Christ there is only one verdict (God's words, not mine).
I could go on but that's probably enough to make you mad at me for now as words rarely do as good of a job of conveying this message face to face. I hope you're having a good day and had a great weekend.
Joe
And so it continues...
May 26 at 5:35pm
Joe-
I am not mad at all. I had a great weekend and hope you and yours did as well. There are definitely more similarities than differences.
http://muslim-canada.org/islam_christianity.html#10commandments
I really don't have a better right as a christian to heaven than my jewish cousins, or my friends who follow Islam.
Kindest regards-
P.S. We ought to view all monotheistic religions (religions which enjoin belief in one God) in the spirit in which St. Peter viewed them when he said, "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons, ...
Back to Islam and the universalist view...this too could not go unaddressed:
May 27 at 8:26am
Hi Friend
I'm glad you had a good weekend.
I've heard those guys from islam-canada talk before and would submit thats like comparing Taco Bell to true Mexican food. I've also had long talks with Walid Shoebat a former muslim terrorist who converted to Christianity and he would say the same as I am. If I were to hand you two glasses of water, both crystal clear and cold yet one had a drop of poison in it would the similarities outweigh the differences? I would submit the following comparison between Islam and Christianity:
http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/islam/comparison-grid-between-christianity-and-islamic-doctrine
As for having a "better right" as a christian to heaven...if you are a blood bought Christian who's repented and trusts in Christ wholly you do...those are God's words not mine.
Joe
At this point the conversation drifted off for a while as work became at bit hectic. Not wanting to leave one particular stone unturned I added the following for my friend's consideration.
June 8 at 10:59pm
Hi Friend,
Sorry it's been a bit since I last responded on this topic, been a bit busy. Although I don't agree with the higher textual criticism (no offense but thats code for liberal theology) regarding John 14:6 the Bible still supports Christ being the only way. So basically returning to the theme of Christ being the only way I would like to submit these verses to the list that support that concept:
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
1Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
The bottom line is if the Bible is inerrant and plenary (as you stated you believe) but "higher textual criticism" is warranted to correct the errors in understanding a straight transliteration we run into a problem. How do you know the part about your own salvation is correct?
What I do know is this, the Bible says to examine yourself to determine if you are in the faith. The first step is to examine yourself in light of the 10 Commandments (which the Bible says God will do when you die and stand in front of him in judgment). Use the 10 Commandments to understand how God sees you (remember we all will be judged on our every word, thought and deed). Have you ever lied? Stolen anything irrespective of value? Used the Lord's name in vain? Lusted after another (see Matthew 5:27-28)? Been angry and hated someone (that's murder according to Scripture)? That's only 5 of the 10 Commandments.
Further by creating a version of God to suit your beliefs instead of adjusting your beliefs to fit the description of God in the Bible is breaking the 2nd Commandment.
The Bible says that no good works will pay for our sins as they are but filthy rags in God's sight. Only by repenting of your sins and placing your trust in Christ can anyone be saved. The Bible says no liars, murderers, blasphemers, adulterers and so on will have their place in the Kingdom of Heaven.
As you can see, in light of the 10 Commandments and using them as a guage of goodness, no one is good, and all deserve to go to hell. It's a harsh reality, but makes is none the less true.
I only ask that you prayerfully consider these things.
Serving my King
Joe
Nine minutes later I recieved the final response...
June 8 at 11:08pm
I have considered and know you to be wrong in your interpretation.
So why this blatant rejection? First, the Bible said this would occur. In this particular case I believe as I stated during the conversation...my friend, who is a deeply caring person, could not rectify the fact that Scripture says if you don't repent and trust in Christ alone you are going to hell. If you review the people my friend knows and hangs around with this seems readily apparent to me. Instead of witnessing to them, instead of telling them of Christ and their need to turn from their sinful lifestyle, my friend has broken the Second Commandment and created a God of their own making, a God to suit their surroundings.
Again, the road to destruction is wide...unfortunately it appears my friend is on it.
My friends, the church is sick. Steeped in poor teaching, apostate leaders and blatant heresy it's time for true believers to stand up and shout. It's time to take a stand and use the Word of God for its purpose...to reach the lost. The time is now. As you can see above, my friend claims to be a Christian. Unfortunately the doctrine my friend espouses is in direct contradiction to the Word. My friend has at least heard the truth, the rest is up to God. Do you have friends in your life that are like this? How about people in your church? 150,000 people in the US die every day, do something about it, tomorrow may be too late!
